S05E104 - Tiger Parents or Smart College Admissions Strategists?: How We Got Two Kids Into Duke with Special Guest Susan Rhee

College admissions - the high-stakes game that dominates the lives of high school students and their families. In this episode, my guest is my spouse Susan Rhee @susanrhee as we unpack how our two children successfully navigated their way to Duke University, despite both facing deferrals in the early decision round.

Susan shares the rollercoaster of emotions we experienced as parents - from the crushing disappointment of initial deferrals to the eventual triumph of acceptance. Together, we candidly discuss the strategies that worked for our family: did it help when our kids did test prep early after freshman year? How important was developing consistent personal narratives through extracurriculars? We also discuss the importance of attending a school that provided individualized attention and leadership opportunities.

We also take a behind-the-scenes look at actual Duke applications. Through FERPA, our daughter obtained her college application review, revealing how admissions officers numerically score different aspects of applications and what factors truly matter in the selection process. This insider perspective demystifies how elite universities streamline the evaluation process of the thousands of qualified applicants they receive annually.

Beyond tactics, we explore the psychological dimensions of college admissions - how to support your child when they don't get into their dream school, why resilience matters more than acceptance letters, and the importance of having backup schools students genuinely love. The conversation serves as both practical guide and emotional support for families navigating this challenging journey.

Whether you're a parent of a high school student or someone fascinated by the complex world of elite college admissions, this episode offers honest insights about what works, what doesn't, and why the college your child attends is ultimately just the first paragraph of the foreword of their life story. Have you been through the college admissions process? We'd love to hear your experiences and strategies!

#CollegeAdmissions #DukeUniversity #CollegeBound #Parenting #EducationJourney #CollegeTips #HigherEducation #CollegePrep #ParentingTeens #CollegeApplication #BotoxAndBurpees #podcast

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S05E104 - Tiger Parents or Smart College Admissions Strategists?: How We Got Two Kids Into Duke with Special Guest Susan Rhee

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00]

Sam Rhee: Welcome to another episode of Botox and Burpees.

I have with me a particularly special guest, my wife, spouse, significant other. I don't know what the, uh, right way to call it these days is, but it is Susan Rhee and today our topic is going to be.

The topic's a little misleading. It says how we got our two kids into Duke University, but that's not really our focus.

I mean, yes, our two kids did get into Duke University. They are, uh, Sasha is now a sophomore and Nick just got admitted a couple weeks ago. It's really just about talking about the process observations, things that we noticed as parents. We probably will forget most of these things in a couple weeks or months, but there's a lot that's fresh that I think a lot of people might find interesting or helpful in their journey because it is quite a journey.

So thank you Susan for guesting today.

Susan Rhee: Thanks for having me.

Sam Rhee: And, uh, just tell me a little bit about yourself. I mean, not that I need to know, but just so that everyone out there can get [00:01:00] you, uh, can get to know you. I don't think you've ever been guessed on any podcast that I've ever been on, so this is your first time.

So thank you again for agreeing to do this.

Susan Rhee: You're very welcome. Hope was out the last time. Um, I am, uh, 53 years old, a mother of two. I had full time, um. As an attorney in the asset management space, um, for the last 30 years. Um, I travel quite a bit, uh, for work.

Um, but you know, I find it rewarding and, uh, and so I've done that with both kids sort of going through the process, which is very, very time consuming.

Um, but I'm thankful to, uh, have my career that I love now that we will soon be empty nesters.

Sam Rhee: Yes. Very soon in the fall. So the first thing I wanted to sort of outline is that our experience with our kids is not what anyone else's experiences might be. It might be really different. And I think attending last night's, um, honors dinner for Nick, it just [00:02:00] really struck me how amazingly different all those kids are, how accomplished, uh, his classmates were, how many incredible places they, they themselves are going to, but that their stories are all different and their college, uh, application process is all different.

Um, and let's face it, I could tell if you're a superstar, you're gonna be a superstar. Like there's not a whole lot of advice we need to give people who are really superstars. Um, I would say our story are two Asian kids growing up in North Jersey, applying to, you know, schools. And, uh, but you might have kids or you, or you yourself are a kid who has a completely different background, different story, different bent, different perspective.

And so this is just one particular observation. Um, so they ended up both applying Ed early decision, which is a binding application to Duke. [00:03:00] Why do you think they did? Why, why do you think they did that?

Susan Rhee: Well, unfortunately, I think in the current environment that they're in, I think most students feel as though they have to apply early somewhere to increase their chances of getting in because it is a binding commitment.

So then the next step is what school and which school will that be for Sasha, she's known since the third grade that she wanted to go to Duke. So it really was not even a question as to where she was going to apply early.

Sam Rhee: Why do you think she wanted to go to Duke since third grade?

Susan Rhee: I mean, we've dragged them to basketball games since they were in third grade.

And, uh, there's, you know, onesies of them in Duke when they're like six months old. So you obviously went there and it took me about a decade into our marriage before I should drank the Blue Devil Kool-Aid and being hated by every other basketball fan in the country where you

Sam Rhee (2): go

Susan Rhee: to college. I went to Boston College, um, and unfortunately I been to basketball games where I have rooted for Duke in solidarity with, uh, [00:04:00] you and the kids.

Um, but you know, you expose your kids to a lot of things and whether or not it will take and become their own true passion, it's a hit or miss. But both of our kids love college sports. They love Duke basketball. And so for her, for Sasha, it was a really best place for her to work hard and play hard.

'cause that is her sort of her personality. When it came to Nick, I think you and I were very careful to tell him that there was no obligation or responsibility or expectation that he would be applying early to Duke. We really wanted him to look at the full range of schools, all different sizes, geographic locations, to really find where he thought he could see himself.

And, you know, he thought about it all summer, and I don't think you and I knew exactly where he was applying early until September. Very true. And that he finally told us, and I have to say I sighed when he told me, but he said that, you know, he wanted to apply to dude, why do you sigh? Because it's a [00:05:00] very, it's a very difficult school to get into.

I they more difficult than some other schools that are, um, you know, in certain categories, you know. From the general public because you know, we've seen a history at their high school where there's only one student that goes to Duke. Yeah, well I'll talk about that. Right. And so that's why, and then I saw Sasha's process and there are two very different kids.

Um, but you know, listen, we're here to support our kids and whatever decision that they make. And so after a lot of visiting to a ton of schools, he chose to apply early to Duke as well.

Sam Rhee: And we're speculating. But why do you think he ended up deciding to apply early decision to Duke?

Susan Rhee: Um, I've asked him that just to make sure that he was certain and he said some of it is familiarity.

He's been on that campus a lot of times. He spent a summer there taking a class. Um, I think the fact that his sister's there also, um, you know, they're close, so that had something to do with it as well. And [00:06:00] I think at the end of the day, he loves Duke basketball. Like he's told me when we visited other schools that had competitive basketball teams, I'm not sure if I can root for this team even though it'll be my school.

And so I think for him it just checked all the boxes. Um, for him personally as well

Sam Rhee: as parents. Did you worry about them not getting into their first choice? I mean, they're both co, they were both applying early decision and both of them, there's no guarantee whatsoever that they're getting into their first choice.

Susan Rhee: I have to say all these bags under my eyes are from the cumulative effect of trying to, you know, of both their college processes. But you know, I will say they're very different students. And because Sasha was our first and we didn't really know that much about the process, and based on her sort of body of work through the last four years, I think I thought, how could they not take this kid?

Um, and so I think we both thought like there's nothing more she [00:07:00] could have physically done, um, you know, in her four years as you know. Student. And so, and I think she kind of felt that way as well. And so when she got deferred, it was a really heartbreaking sort of day for her.

Sam Rhee: Right. So what happens is you apply in, when is the deadline?

Uh, the deadline

Susan Rhee: is November 1st, or most early decisions. And you find out about the week before Christmas.

Sam Rhee: And so if you get in, you're committed. Yes. And you don't have to apply to any other

Susan Rhee: schools. Nope. You're done.

Sam Rhee: And then, but if you don't get in, you could either be. Uh, denied where they reject you mm-hmm.

Or deferred where you go through the regular admissions process. Mm-hmm. And so I remember this very vividly. I know you did. We both sat there and I don't know how these TikTok videos happen where people do the reveals because it's so nerve wracking. And I, um, I was, I remember as a parent being so disappointed in the fact that she opened it and, you know, you're now [00:08:00] on your laptop, you click on it, you open the portal message and it says deferred, and she's crying.

It's a terrible, uh, moment as a parent to feel for your daughter. And, you know, the fact that she did not, uh, get what she wanted. How did you feel about it?

Susan Rhee: I mean, I was surprised. Um, and then. As you start seeing stats come out on how many, what percentage they actually took out of the early decision pool, then I vacillated between being thankful that she wasn't outright rejected.

Mm-hmm. And that she still at least had a fight. I mean, that basketball season was the most peaceful for me. 'cause we did not watch one Duke basketball game. Oh, I could, I took all my Duke stuff away. I think her Duke ornament went into the fireplace. Like, so, you know, it was just one of those moments where, you know, the whole process is just a range of emotions, you know, from being happy to being confused, to being sad, to being outright angry.

And so.

you

It was a tough winter break for her and the [00:09:00] family and, you know, I think she just couldn't get it out of her mind. And um, you know, we just, you can only just encourage that the process has just started. Um, and you know, and then just wait.

Sam Rhee: You know, we repeated the same process with Nick, so he also applied early decision.

I also vividly remember him opening up, you know, standing there in the kitchen with his laptop and, you know, opening it, the letter, uh, on the portal and then slamming the laptop shut and being so upset that he got deferred. So I couldn't believe that it was like deja vu all over again. And so how did you feel about the second time around?

Susan Rhee: I mean, I think for Nick I was sort of thinking that he was gonna get deferred. That's wow. Because I feel as though.

you

Some of this is strategy, right? And whether I'm right or wrong, you always like make fun of [00:10:00] me because I have all these conspiracy theories on why certain schools do this and that. Mm-hmm.

But I did feel as though from, if I'm a Duke admission person, I'm thinking this kid is pretty much a lock in to come if we let him in, in the art regular decision pool. His sister's there, you went there. Um, and so I did not think he was gonna get outright rejected, so I figured he was gonna get deferred.

'cause they know that the yield on him has, is a pretty high percentage that if he comes in regular decision, he will probably attend.

Sam Rhee: So you didn't think he was a strong enough candidate for them to just be like, we want you we're gonna

Susan Rhee: take No, because Sasha wasn't. And so. You know, watching her process, I think it recalibrated everything for us or for me at least.

Mm-hmm. On sort of how arbitrary the process sort of is. And remember at, with every school during early decision, it's not only just the students, every collegiate athlete is being admitted during that process. So that's already two, 300 spots out of 700.

Sam Rhee: So the Boozer twins coming [00:11:00] in Yes. The for next year were admitted all the other, yes.

And

Susan Rhee: that's just basketball. Duke has a zillion sports. So it's all those athletes that are coming in during that round.

Sam Rhee: Yeah, I think. If you have a kid who's good at sports, it's such a huge short, not shortcut, but short circuit of the process. We just saw the kid who's six, is he six 11, yeah. And he's going to MIT for basketball.

Yeah. And the kid is ginormous, but he's probably sharper than like 99.9% of any basketball player you've ever seen out there. Mm-hmm. And it just made me happy to see this kid use his athletic skills to be able to go to an institution where he is not going to go on to professional basketball, most likely if you're playing for MIT.

But the fact that he's going to have an amazing career probably afterwards because he's getting into an institution. That's amazing. Yeah. Um, and I think I learned a lot when Sasha, was it your idea or [00:12:00] her idea to get the, the, uh, her application.

Susan Rhee: Oh, I told her, okay,

Sam Rhee: so it's this. So, and we'll talk about it.

But basically she was able to get a copy of her actual Duke application and their review and ratings, and we'll go through that a little bit just so that people understand what points they're looking at, um, and what they're actually writing down in these applications, which, which was a little mind blowing to me actually.

Mm-hmm. Um, okay. So were there any other schools during this early process that they felt like they also really loved? That they would also be okay at going to, I.

Susan Rhee: Yeah, they were both really similar in that they both loved USC and UCLA. I mean, what's not to love? It's California, it's sunny, there's palm trees everywhere.

Mm-hmm. Um, and those two schools don't have an early decision. They have an early action process, which means it's not binding, but it's the same November one [00:13:00] application deadline.

But the kicker to that is you find out whether you're in or not or deferred in January, which is two months earlier than the regular decision pool.

So, um. And so those were two schools that, for both of them was very high on their list as well.

Sam Rhee: I know a lot of kids, especially at that, the school they go to, which is Dwight Englewood, which is a private school that so many kids apply to. All the Ivys. Yeah. And the Ivys have a slightly different admissions progress.

They, uh, process their early, they don't have, and this is something I never quite understood, is I know about Ed, you know, you apply, it's binding you get in done gives, uh, it's a little unfair in the sense that, um, colleges, uh, hold you to that decision. You don't get a chance to sort of look at any other acceptances and see whether or not there's some place better that you might think is, uh, more desirable.

You know, it's a one and done shot. Uh, the upside is, is your admissions rate is higher, right? Mm-hmm. It's [00:14:00] usually what, like at Duke it was what, 10%, 10% versus the, this year went three and a half, three and a half for the regular pool. Um, but. Harvard, Princeton, all these other places they do. Can you explain this one to me?

'cause you know this one.

Susan Rhee: Yeah. So there are some IVs, like Cornell and Columbia that have early decisions. So same thing, binding. Mm-hmm. There are some IVs, like, I think it's Yale, Princeton for sure, where they have this thing called restrictive early action. Mm-hmm. Where you have to apply early and you'll find out early, but you are not allowed to apply to any other early action schools except for state schools.

Mm-hmm. So that's sort of the trade off. Um. And so for instance, if Nick was applying to Princeton, he would not have been able to apply to USC early action. Mm-hmm. Because that is a private institution he could to Michigan. Mm-hmm. Because that's a state institution, Rutgers. Um, so any state college, so they have a restrictive or REA process.

Sam Rhee: What's EA one, EA two then?

Susan Rhee: So [00:15:00] EA one is what our kids did early decision. You apply by November one, you find out before Christmas for some kids, if you don't get into your number one ED school, you can apply early decision two, which deadline is January 1st and you'll find out by the end of February. So it's just the same process just in the, from January to March.

And so there are a couple schools that have ED two, like Tufts has ED two, WashU has ED two, I think Emory has ED two. Mm-hmm. Um, so that gives sort of kids two bites of the apple. Right. Just kind of be done with this process. If they have two schools that they really liked.

Sam Rhee: Now, how do these students rank these schools?

Because there's so much chatter with these kids about what school's good or what school's not good. And so how do you think this plays into the stress of college admissions for these kids?

Susan Rhee: I mean, I think there's no one more stressed in this process. I mean, you might think we're really stressed. No one is more stressed [00:16:00] than the actual kid.

Sam Rhee: Oh, absolutely. And

Susan Rhee: um, and I think a lot of, whether they think something is good or not, frankly speaking, is sort of their academic place or ranking or pecking order at their school. So these kids know they're at the top of the class, middle below, whatever. Um, and so a lot of it, I think is social. The social pressure Yes.

Of sort of. Meeting other people's expectations. Isn't that crazy? Which is crazy. Um, because at the end of the day, you know, I think what we kept on telling our kids and whether they believed it or not, was it really did not matter where you went. It's really the fact that it was a good fit for you and that you do your best and strive at the school that you ultimately being.

I don't think they listened to a lick of that when we said that because they're not ready to process it that way. They kind of just look at the schools. And the problem with this is that the top 20 schools, every single kid at that school is applying to, they're not taking 50 kids to USC. They're not. So at some point it becomes a numbers game that's just working against a majority of the [00:17:00] students.

Um, and so I think it's the pressures of all of that, and I think that.

you know,

It's a lot for these kids to navigate not only those emotions, doing all these applications, writing all these essay, and don't forget, there's still full-time students that need to do really well for a semester of their senior year.

Sam Rhee: You know, I think my perspective was colored because my parents were the typical Asian parents that were like, Habad, Harvard, you know,

yada.

you know Princeton. And, you know, that's what they knew because they had no idea. They had just come from Korea maybe, uh, a year before I was born, two years before I was born.

And so they knew nothing. And, and the fact that I ended up choosing, well, first of all, I didn't get into the, any of the Ivys, so I was a failed, you know, Ivy League wanted that into

Susan Rhee: Cornell.

Sam Rhee: Uh, okay. Yes, you, you're right. I did. Alright. One, um. And so all of their, uh, friends' [00:18:00] kids got into Harvard and Yale and Princeton and Columbia and all these places.

And I ended up choosing Duke. And that was very confusing to them back in 1987. Like it was one of those, what is this place? And then I remember, and this is a family joke, but when my brother all who also went to Duke, he's two years younger than me, was applying for engineering schools and he wanted to go to Harvey Mud, which is a great private engineering like, you know, engineering school out in California, part of the Claremont, um, system.

And I remember my mother just going, ha and just yelling at him over like, no, I'm not spending money for you to go to Ha. And so, uh, I think that colored my perspective in terms of. What I thought an ideal college was, I did not think that you had to go into an Ivy. Um, duke wasn't as nearly as selective as it is [00:19:00] now.

Um, and so, uh, it worried me a little bit that they ended up wanting to go there. Obviously, I, I influenced them in some part, at least by exposing them to all of the Duke basketball and everything. But, but, um, I just really worry that they would think that, and I always said this, I said this in a previous podcast.

This is not like, it doesn't define anything in your life. It's not your first chapter. It's not even the first page of the first chapter. It's like the first paragraph of the fore of the prologue of your book. Like it nobody, you know, your success is not even nearly. Dependent on what undergraduate institution you go to or nor is your happiness, nor is your overall experience, um, dependent on the status of that school.

But these kids keep feeding into that over and over and over again. And I think honestly, the parents like it or not, also do that in, in huge part. And it's really, really, really, [00:20:00] really, really hard because this could have fallen a completely different way for our kids. It could have gone any other way than this.

Like this was lottery luck on, on, on a lot of levels. And, and did we play the odds? Did we try to shape it the best way we could as parents? Absolutely. And there are some things that I think we did do, which m maybe influenced things a little bit, but it's, it's a crapshoot. Like I said, it's not a meritocracy in any means by any means.

And so, um, you know, how many kids did you see at our school that had some kind of. And whether they're athletics like the kid from going to MIT or you know, family or other connections, I mean that really sort of showed all of us that it's not necessarily the brightest or the smartest kids that go into whatever school that they want to go to.

Mm-hmm.

Susan Rhee: I mean, I think when you look at the kids, at least from their school. [00:21:00] I wouldn't say a majority of them, but I would say 30% is have applied to an institution that one of their parents or both their parents have gone to. Um, and I have seen it both ways. I have seen kids, a majority of them get in. I have seen some kids not get in, um, you know, for Nick's year.

I think, from what I sort of know, I don't know how many people applied, but I think four or five of them ended up getting deferred. And I think four out of the five had at least one parent that had attended Duke. Um. They ultimately did not end up getting in. But I think that your everyone's sort of strategy or sort of, uh, game plan if the child likes the school, is to try to leverage at least something like that just to differentiate them a little bit.

Because truth be told at these schools, they're all looking at kids that are the brightest in their class, have, you know, led a [00:22:00] bazillion clubs. They're all frankly the same, um, in all respects.

So there's no sort of differentiating factor anymore because I think there's, these kids have just been sort of been groomed or have been working on their story since freshman year.

And so, um, I do think you know that where your parents went to school and if you decide to apply there, I think it does give them a little bit of a boost considering all things being equal. Um, but without that. That alone is not gonna get you in anywhere. Of

Sam Rhee: course. And I think, um, you have to remember that colleges are looking to fit people into their niches.

So if they need a tuba player that year mm-hmm. They're, they're gonna look for a tuba player. Um, and like you said, there are so many candidates that are of equal qualifications, it's much easier to pick the tuba player than it is say, someone who isn't. Mm-hmm. Um, and so we can talk a little bit about shaping stories and, and how that can work to some kids' advantages.

[00:23:00] I think, um, we chose to send them to a private school instead of take sending them to Ridgewood High School. Do you think that make a, that made a difference?

Susan Rhee: A hundred percent. I mean, I think that, uh, I think Sasha sort of bamboozled you and sort of wore you down because with her, you know, she really felt as though she could really shine at a smaller institution.

She could get involved in a lot more things.

So,

know, 125 kids versus 500, it's a big difference. Um, do I think she would've done really well at Ridgewood High School? Yes. Do I think her outcome would've been the same? I don't know. Um, but at the end of the day, she was very happy there for four years and she thrived.

I mean, she really did and took advantage of every opportunity. And if there was something she wanted to do that wasn't there, she was able to sort of. Be able to make it happen.

Sam Rhee: [00:24:00] Nick?

Susan Rhee: Um, Nick also, I think we just assumed, you know, we just have both kids at the same place.

Sam Rhee: How about his performance? Do you think he would've done as well at Ridgewood as versus Dwight?

Susan Rhee: I don't think so.

Sam Rhee: Why?

Susan Rhee: I don't, you know, he has a different personality, you know, he's a little bit more of an introvert. He's not sort of a go, you know, sort of really go-getter. She does very well the way he operates, but his personality is very different and I think a smaller class size setting was really helpful in sort of drawing his talents and his interests out.

Um, he was able to get involved in a ton of extracurricular activities. He led and created clubs and so I think that smaller environment for him made a big difference.

Sam Rhee: How about BC, a Bergen County Academies, that is the jewel of Bergen County. Sasha applied. It is free for all. You can go there and their college admissions record is absolutely stellar.

Susan Rhee: You know, this is kind of like with colleges, right? You have to find the right [00:25:00] fit. And yes, Sasha thought that that was her dream high school going into eighth grade. So she took the test, she ended up getting in. But somewhere before her decision came out, she said, this is not the place for me.

And when we pressed her on it, she just said like, I don't wanna be studying 24 7 to maybe be middle of the class.

'cause this is the brightest of Bergen County all in one school. And so I think she feared that she would not have a complete sort of high school experience. 'cause it's not all about just studying and everything and all that. And so she,

Sam Rhee: my parents feel differently, Lee, but go ahead.

Susan Rhee: Yes, but we're not your parents.

So, um, and so, you know, and I have to say like when I went with her to the interview, the parents were in the gym waiting for their kids to come out. And even just the parents in there were stressing me out. Like it was just a very different sort of mindset. Um, and so ultimately I was happy she came to that conclusion on her [00:26:00] own.

Sam Rhee: Wasn't one wearing a tux?

Susan Rhee: I don't know if it was a tux, but it was a full blown suit. And then the guy sitting next to her, 'cause she was going for computer science at the time, brought like a whole box of his trophies and awards and she's just looking at him and she just like, this is not the place for me.

So thank God though she realized that pretty early on at that young age, um, to be able to pivot.

Sam Rhee: Yeah. But if you're a superstar, that should be the place to go, right?

Susan Rhee: Yes. I think depending on what you want though, as your high school experience,

Sam Rhee: we know people who went to BCA who are friends with Sasha.

Yes. They're not nerds. They didn't study all the time. It's true. They complete individuals Yes. Who are superstars. Yes,

Susan Rhee: that's true. So

Sam Rhee: I would say if you are a superstar, you should probably go to that school because you can pick almost any school you want coming out of that school if you do well.

Susan Rhee: Yes.

Sam Rhee: Okay. So they're not all nerds who just carry boxes of trophies all over the place.

Susan Rhee: Okay. The two that we know are not,

Sam Rhee: that's good enough for me. [00:27:00] Um, alright, so let's talk a, let me throw back a little bit. So do you think what we did for them growing up, grade school, middle school, you know, kindergarten, like the activities they were exposed to, the developmental sort of.

Things that we wanted them to, uh, be exposed to. Do you think any of that made a difference in terms of how they were either prepared for or got getting, you know, to do well in terms of the performance afterwards in high school?

Susan Rhee: I mean, I think looking back, I really believe you can't. Sort of force a kid to want to do?

Well they, some of that has to be sort of innate. Yes, you can like browbeat them and force that, but that is very long like short LA lived on how long you could do that. Whatcha gonna do that for the next 18 years, 20 years? What are you gonna do with that?

Sam Rhee: Did you force them to do something as kids?

Susan Rhee: Yes.

The one thing I did with Sasha is I did not want her to be one of those [00:28:00] girls in a STEM class that felt small with the boys. And so for me it was really important that she have and be very confident. And so when she was in pre-K, I enrolled her in Kuman where they do like early math and reading and.

You kind of progress at your own pace. So if you finish a level, you take the test and you pass, you go to the next level. And they made it fun for the kids. 'cause every time you pass a level, you got a different colored bag. You could buy things from the store. Yeah.

Sam Rhee: Funds relative. But yes, they did have prizes.

Susan Rhee: Yeah. So there are prizes. So at the time they didn't think it was anything that arduous. Now mind you, when they started advancing and they got to like fifth grade, I mean it was math that I couldn't even do anymore. And so you took the brunt of sort of doing their homework with them. But you know, it's hard to get kids to consistently wanna do that.

But we literally just made them stick with it. I mean, I think sometimes with Nick you were spending there like, and like 45 minutes with him with the yellow post-Its trying to explain a concept to him and whatever.

Sam Rhee: [00:29:00] I would say they would argue that I didn't help them very much. But I would say, um, I do know, I do remember a lot of kids that were their peers started kuman and sort of gave up on it.

Yes. Pretty quick. Yeah. And for whatever reason we made them do it. Um, I would say it helped them in two, for two reasons. And this is one of the things I, I, I go back to is kids do well with success. If they struggle, it's easy for them to quit. If they're good at a sport, they keep getting better at that sport.

If they're good at a subject, they keep getting better at that subject, subject and, um, un unfortunately. But the reality is math is not necessarily about smartness. It's about knowledge and. Repetition. Mm-hmm.

So the fact that they had exposure to a lot of the math concepts before they actually took them in school made it easier for them.

Mm-hmm.

Made [00:30:00] them, built them some confidence, and they never had problems with reading. So reading always seemed to be fine for them. So we just kind of, you know, stopped the reading part of it. Um, the other thing that I, and so I think building that success of, you know, that pattern of knowing what success is like I know what it feels like to go into a class and do well.

They, they, once you reinforce that they sort of want that, once they kind of struggle and flail, like they don't really, they shy away from it. And you can see that in sports too all the time. Um, so I would say the fact that it wasn't so much what the subject was, but just that feeling of. Success for a kid.

Setting that up for them was super helpful. And also it helped them know that they have resources. So they actually would go back to their Mont tutors in even what middle school or early high school, I can't remember, to ask for help for, for problems. [00:31:00] And I think that is one of the things that our kids learned from all of this extra crap that we made them do, is that they could seek help, they can find others to help them.

Now again, you need either the support around you for people.

Like I couldn't help them after fourth grade really, but we had the resources to get them to the tutors to help them with these problems. And I remember many times.

Nick or Sasha E even now with Nick, like before tests not, you know, they didn't feel really up to date on the concepts or really strong on it, would go have a session or two with somebody.

And th that is the kind of pattern or habits that you have to ingrain in your kids that, listen, they're not necessarily smarter than anyone else, but if you have access to resources and you can get to it and you know what success feels like, how to set yourself up for it, you know, we all know what it's like to take a test and you're not prepared and you know you're not prepared.[00:32:00]

You know, that's a. Terrible feeling like that's still some of my worst nightmares that come back is like feeling unprepared for a test. Um, so I would say the early part of development in terms of if you're setting your, your kid up for success later is to reinforce that feeling of success.

The other thing is, is we did enroll them in a ton of sports, like so many different, so many, and I feel like that helped, uh, a lot in terms of just physical development.

Physical development also goes hand in hand with mental development. And, uh, maybe they didn't do everything, you know, or, you know, Nick did basketball for a while, now he's in track. Sasha did soccer, now, doesn't really like soccer, but did lacrosse for a while, which he enjoyed. Like just keeping them in activities, especially team-based activities.

I think they are important where you're interacting with people. Not a huge fan of golf or tennis. Not that there's anything wrong with it, I think they're awesome sports, but I do feel like team building, [00:33:00] social interaction, working well with others. I never really had that and I just love the fact that those two had it.

And I think that that sort of helped them in terms of their high school activities, clubs, leadership, uh, in the future.

So I don't think you have to be super crazy about it, but, um, yeah, I think you should definitely push it and listen,

if you're really good at something, like we, there were kids at Ridgewood, went to Stanford on.

what?

Lacrosse or ba you know, duke for baseball, you know, and so, uh, there are a few kids out there that can, you know, or even kids at Dwight who um, maybe weren't like D one athletes, but got into some awesome D three schools, like really top-notch, you know, playing sports. So there's a lot of different paths that you can use.

Keep trying your kids at different things and you might find that in, that works for them that they love, they wanna pursue, uh, and can help them get the best education [00:34:00] possible. Um, so let's talk about how they did in terms of their grades and test scores in high school. How do you think they did in terms of their grades, both Sasha and Nick?

Susan Rhee: I mean, Sasha probably couldn't have done any better.

Nick, um, ended up, you know, they changed it a little bit his year, whereas when Sasha was going, they actually gave a pluses and made those, the value of that like a 4.3. Whereas in Nick's senior year they got away with the whole A pluses stuff.

Um, but you know, but Nick was close to what Sasha did.

Sam Rhee: How about standardized testing?

Susan Rhee: Um,

They both took it very early. The SAT? Yeah. They both took the SAT it was before the revised format.

I think they took it after their, each of their freshman years. Did they

Sam Rhee: prep? Did they do SAT prep? Yes.

Susan Rhee: They went to an A SAT prep, like for two or three months before they took the August one of that summer after freshman year.

Sam Rhee: [00:35:00] So they took it early?

Susan Rhee: Yes, they took it early, um, because they had already finished the math that was required.

And the only thing I said to them was because they were obviously annoyed with me by telling me, asking me, you know, I was asking them to do this. But what I told them was, I said, listen, once you get to be a sophomore going to junior or junior year, your course load is so heavy you do not want to be dealing with studying for this standardized test.

On top of that. So after freshman year. Freshman year is like not crazy, you know, it's some modicum of difficulty, but it wasn't crushing the workload and so they reluctantly did it and um, they took it twice. So Sasha took it the first time.

So she did, uh, not as well as she wanted the first time. I'm, so she took it a second time and that score was fine. Nick actually the first time got this, the score that he wanted, but of course, you know, he's competitive so he said, oh, lemme just try it again, which he didn't do better.

So he was like, okay, that's fine. Mm-hmm. So they were done [00:36:00] pretty early.

Sam Rhee: So do you feel like you need to do the test prep? And I think the other thing is, is that test prep doesn't last that long. Like the effect of it Yeah. Does not extend. So it's not like you could test prep, wait six months, and then feel like you got that boost from test prep.

Right. Right. This is where the system is not fair. If you, if you really test prep hard and then you take the, uh, exam, you're in that testing mode, question mode, answer mode, and I don't know if you've taken a lot of exams. I've taken a lot of exams in real life and there is a, there is sort of a, I. Mindset that you need in order to process, evaluate mm-hmm.

Answer, um, for these kind of tests and get into that mindset of what these test, um, composers are doing. And so it, it really is like a crest. So that is probably, you don't, I don't think you necessarily need to do it your freshman year, but you need to do it at a time where you have a big gap of, you know, time where you can really intensively [00:37:00] test prep and then go into the test with the maximum amount of confidence.

I think Nick retook it, but he didn't test prep again. No. And so it had kind of faded a little bit and so you kind of lose that. Right. So it's unfortunate. I don't know how much, um, emphasis colleges are now playing, uh, pay, uh, paying to. Test scores. I know they're test optional. Um, a lot of places still are.

What's your thought about testing and its role in terms of being evaluated for college admissions?

Susan Rhee: I mean, I think, you know, it's kind of, you know, there are some people that are just not good test takers. Hmm. Um, me being one of them. Um, but their body of work, academically and extracurricular are all sort of very high achieving.

Um, and so it has been beneficial for students. Because they don't need to sort of have the test score reported. But what all that also did is now that there's not that sort of initial [00:38:00] bar, which it used to be that if you didn't get above some certain SAT score, the schools wouldn't even consider you.

Now that that barrier has been removed, so many kids are applying to every single school, which is why all these schools are getting record number of applications. And I'm sorry, when you have 90,000 applications, are you really looking at these carefully and individually and holistically? Probably not.

So it's come, you know, with a pros and cons, sort of, you know, um, with sort of the test optional. Now, next year, several schools did bring testing back, like UT Austin did. Yale did, Georgetown did. And I think they're just seeing that there are. Some correlation to how kids do their freshman year if they had a test score submitted.

Um, and I think the trend is going to continue where schools are gonna start requiring tests. However, Nick's school counselors did say that even these schools that are saying they're test optional, if they look at the kids that they're admitting a very high percentage had test scores. So it's like one of those things where you're sort of [00:39:00] trying to read the tea leaves of each school to sort of see sort of what your decision is with respect to your testing.

Because you can send to some schools and not send to others. It's not a uniform thing.

Sam Rhee: So if you're a good test taker, it's to your advantage to take these tests. Yes, yes. And perform well. Yes. And I think having taken tests a lot, there are so many occupations and options in life that are open. The better off, uh, the better test taker you are, whether it's the lsat, the mcat, uh, you know, everything else after that.

So. If you have a kid who you might not think is the best test taker, I think it behooves you to work on their test taking skills. I think that's really important. It's like, I hate to liken it to CrossFit 'cause that's such a foreign analogy, but it is sort of like when you perform under in a comp for, for CrossFit.

Performing well in a competition or any competition is a skill, right? So you [00:40:00] could be a great baseball player, but if you're in a game time situation, it takes experience in that game time to be able to execute. You could do great in batting practice, you know, uh, every day, uh, with your team, but in certain points in time you have to be able to execute.

And you might know all the material that is in the SAT or any other standardized test, but if you can't process, evaluate and spit out the right answer, it's gonna really hurt. And so, as much as I hate. The way these standardized tests, uh, the importance that it is on them, I realized because I have been in historically a good test taker, that that's what got me through and I can only advise people to reach their maximum potential in terms of test taking.

And so, uh, I think that that's something that is a hard truth for some kids. But listen, I tell kids, if you know who are pre-med, dude, you better, you're gonna be taking a lot of [00:41:00] tests, like a lot. And if you struggle, it's gonna be a long road. And it has nothing to do with how compassionate you are, how good your hands are, you know how much knowledge you can retain.

It's, it's about getting that right answer. And so it's unfortunate, but that's something that I think kids need to know early. Mm-hmm. Let's talk about, um, their extracurriculars. Um, and you know what? Let's also lead that into crafting their story. So I think one of the things that kids can really control in terms of the process is what story they present to college admissions.

And so how did our kids do that? And how do you, how did they come about deciding what their quote story is?

Susan Rhee: I mean, you think, I think for both of them, they kind of leaned into what they were most interested in. And so for Sasha, that was ethics and philosophy. Mm-hmm. Um, she really loved the teachings, the classes, and so she really leaned on ethics and philosophy.

And so she took. All the [00:42:00] ethics and philosophy courses that the school had. She was a member of the Ethics Bowl team since freshman year and then was a captain her senior year. So she really leaned into that. Um, Nick, although he took some time for him to acknowledge the fact that he's a very good writer and, um, and so since he wasn't completely sure what he wanted to study, I asked him to consider being an English major because that is what he loved.

He loves to write and so he was already writing for the paper. Um, and that's where he found the most joy, he said, was when he was just sitting down and writing. Um, so I think the narrative really starts with, and has to start with what are your kids passionate about? What is it that they like? Because that story is going to have to be woven in through all the activities, extracurriculars, summer programs that they do leading up to their senior year.

Sam Rhee: Yeah. So I agree wholeheartedly. Your. Like you said, there's so many highly qualified applicants. [00:43:00] You have to present a story, a unique as you can story to these, um, admissions, uh, counselors or ev uh, officers. So, um, if you are Hil, you know, just sort of scattershot in terms of all of your interests, you, you dabble a little bit here, dabble a little bit there, doesn't really work so great.

I think, um, if you can weave everything into a cohesive personal narrative, it makes the kids stand out. Oh, they're the one who's, who cares about ethics and so they do ethics this, and they're also into humanitarian efforts here, and they do this and, and so, you know, and they're a leader in this, so. I agree.

Um, I don't know whether or not you need to go against the grain so much. So, for example, there are a lot of kids, and maybe we did this with Nick too, like, that are applying for stem. They're all like science, tech, engineering, math, [00:44:00] whatever. And they're such a glut of these kids. Mm-hmm. So is it worthwhile to sort of play up the contra, um, contrarian, uh, application where you're like, no, I'm, I'm a liberal arts guy and I really wanna write, or I, you know, I have something that's completely different because they need to fill English departments too with students.

Do you think that that's helpful?

Susan Rhee: I mean, I think it depends on the schools you're applying to. There are certain schools that you actually have to be admitted into their engineering program. You have to be admitted into their business school. And so you can't sort of do a, you know, what is it, bait and switch?

Like apply as a humanities major. Then all of a sudden you really gonna go to Compsci and try to get into their STEM program. 'cause some schools don't let you switch between the colleges within the university. Um, but hey, these kids are 17 or 18. Do they really know what they wanna do? Exactly. So there has to be a path for them to be able to do that.

I don't think you can switch unless your rubric and your story has shown that you [00:45:00] wanna do humanities. Like if you've, all you've been doing is comp sci and then all of a sudden you apply as a humanities major, that's sort of not going to work as far as your stories goes. These admissions officer are not stupid.

Right. Like they've seen it all. Right. Um, and so, you know, that was one of the benefits for Nick is that he was not a STEM major and he was not. Interested in stem, um, and his interest was English. And I do think that made his process a lot easier than his STEM friends that are applying for these coveted engineering spots at all of these schools.

Sam Rhee: How about the guy? And we know someone who was an accomplished, uh, pianist, applied, uh, submitted all of the, you know, performance tapes for me, uh, for music. Met everyone at the School of Music, you know, they loved him. Got in and then flipped to pre-med immediately when he got into school. Like is that a bait and switch?

Susan Rhee: Yes. Because I think you listen. [00:46:00] Is

Sam Rhee: it wrong?

Susan Rhee: I don't think it's wrong because I think if the story works, listen, I feel he was

Sam Rhee: a very accomplished pianist. Yes. It wasn't like he was lying.

Susan Rhee: Right. And he went through auditions, he did all that. But I also feel like the colleges have set up this game and set up the system and these kids are just savvy enough to figure out how to work within the system, which frankly speaking is what you're gonna have to do for the rest of your life.

Whether you're in the corporate world, medicine or whatever it is, it's sort of seeking out the best way to get to your end goal. And so, no, I don't think it's wrong because he did go through all the steps. Those auditions are not easy. Um, and you know, he just found a way to, you know, sort of, uh, get in sort of the back door.

Sam Rhee: Now, full disclosure, each of our kids had two college admissions,

help,

uh, counselors to help them. One from Dwight, and then we also hired a private admissions counselor.

Susan Rhee: They were for two very different things. Okay. Okay. So because, '

Sam Rhee: [00:47:00] cause people are gonna listen to this and be like, oh my God, these guys are like Asian tiger parents who are just like, no gaming the system like nobody's business.

Susan Rhee: Listen, I think that, uh, one of the things we were very fortunate that unlike most public schools, Dwight has a dedicated counselor and had only has like 18 to 20 students. So they are working with them since the summer of sophomore year. They're working on their college list, they're working on their applications, they're working on their essays.

It's still a school. They do not work in the summer. And so with both of our kids, they were applying to a lot of schools. It was a lot of essays.

Sam Rhee: How many schools did they each apply to?

Susan Rhee: Sasha applied to 18 and Nick applied to 21.

Sam Rhee: That's called shotgunning, isn't it?

Susan Rhee: Well, I think that the college counseling office is very smart in that.

They don't want your list to be a list of all nine Ivys and one school that you're likely to get into because it is very possible that you will get rejected from all nine. And so they want a balanced list. So the more schools they had sort of [00:48:00] on the, the more difficult spectrum, you needed to have a balancing list of schools that were sort of targets for them, or pretty likely they were gonna get in, which just adds schools, which may ends up in the number that they ended up having.

Sam Rhee: So they had a ton of schools.

Susan Rhee: They had a ton of schools. And what I told them was with, especially with Sasha, I said, listen, you're taking a very heavy course, low senior year. I don't know how you're gonna write all these essays and do well in these classes. And so we hired an essay coach to sort of get them through where, and.

Trust me, they are not writing these essays for their kids. She, they had to write them all and they would just meet with them to sort of, you know, get ideas or do edits here and there. Um, but for me, I loved it because it wasn't me nagging them to get on their essays. They were working with someone that was putting them on a sort of timeline to get this stuff done.

Now, one kid did better with the timeline, the other pers the other kid did not. Hmm. You know, we dragged the other one pass, you know, through the whatever, but they all got done. Um, and [00:49:00] so, um, it was really more from that perspective that, um, we, I just wanted most of them done before they had sort of a crushing load of schoolwork for senior year.

Sam Rhee: So if I don't have the resources to hire a bazillion people, could I recruit people around me and other people to help? Reading these essays, helping, you know, edit them, providing commentary, helping them with deadlines, all that stuff.

Susan Rhee: Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, you've, if you're interested in a certain topic, you've had a teacher, an English teacher somewhere that you've connected with in the four years, I know English teachers are very happy to help students and read.

And, you know, honestly speaking, all these prompts, after the first five schools, you can kind of recycle the essays. And so once you have a good sort of framework, I think you're pretty good to finish off the rest of the essays.

Sam Rhee: If we had to do it again, would we still hire a bunch of, uh, people to do all this stuff for us?

Susan Rhee: [00:50:00] Yes.

Sam Rhee: Oh, okay. All right. Um, let's talk about the college application process. So we, we talked a little bit about the early part of it. They got nagged and deferred, and then they had to apply. And submit applications to a bunch of schools. Right? So they completed, so they had a list of 20 some schools, they only applied to one early decision.

No, they didn't get in. Did they already finish their applications for all the other schools?

Susan Rhee: So what I told them was, listen, depending on what happens on that ed, you're gonna be in no mental state to submit or do any essays. You'll be so sad. Yes. So they had everything done by mid-November and they submitted them all.

' cause I was like, listen, if you get in, we have a withdrawal party. If you don't get in, these are already in, you don't need to think about it. So. Some people wait because it is expensive to apply to all these schools. It's like $75 a pop,

Sam Rhee: but, but you could at least get everything done. [00:51:00] Not not submitted.

Susan Rhee: Yes. But you know, you know how I am. So I didn't even want them in that emotional state. No, but if you didn't want blow, like two grand or something. Yes. Just have them done. And then if the outcome is not what you desired, then you can just hit the submit button and then just get them all in before Nova of January 1st.

Sam Rhee: Mm-hmm. And so they did that. And this was the part where I actually, for all the heartache and waiting probably was the best growth part of it for the kids and me in terms of figuring out, okay, my first choice is not possibly available to me. What other schools could I really see myself going to? And I think that that was.

A big growing up process for our kids and for me too. Because, you know, it was not like, okay, mindless Duke, there we go, done. It was like, oh, does Georgetown look like a school for me? Does Tufts, does Boston College? [00:52:00] Does you know, Maryland does Syracuse. Like they really had to imagine themselves at all these schools because suddenly it just got real.

Like they could be rejected from like a bazillion schools and so they might have to fall back on one of the schools that they hadn't considered before. How many schools did they go to and when did they visit all of these schools? Was it before?

Susan Rhee: Yeah, so I think we started junior year for each of them.

Mm. And I think I have visited over 18 schools

Sam Rhee: now. We have the resources to do that. Yes. Was it worthwhile to do that?

Susan Rhee: I think it was because they had so many schools on the list that the visits actually took schools off the list, where they were like, no way. I can never see myself here. So at least it whittled down the list because there was no sense in wasting your time for school that you would never wanna go to.

So it helped for that. Um, and I also think, [00:53:00] you know, these kids, they either have a certain vibe at a school or they don't. And so I feel like in their mind, going through this process, it kind of put the schools in a pecking order of, yes, I could. Eh, I don't love it, but I could go if that was my only choice.

Sam Rhee: So that helps.

Susan Rhee: Yes.

Sam Rhee: Very different from my parents who never sent me to a single school until after I got admitted. I got admitted to three other than Ohio State. And so they're like, alright, you can visit these schools. And then I just visited.

Susan Rhee: And a lot of people do that. They can, there's virtual tours you can do.

Mm-hmm. And people just wait to see what they've, where they've gotten in and then they just visit those schools. So there's multiple ways you can do it.

Sam Rhee: Okay. So let's actually talk about the application. So Sasha pulled, and I can't wait 'cause when Nick gets to school, I want him to pull his app just so I could see what they said.

Um, I would imagine that a lot of schools work [00:54:00] similarly. This is Duke's process, but I would imagine other schools sort of work the same way. The first thing is, is that the, the first page has obviously gender, it has ethnicity, has their citizenship status in terms of US citizen or not. Um, it has their date of birth, it has their, um.

Study, uh, what their intended major is. You know, ethics, philosophy, engineering, what have you, and they also have a couple different tags which show you what they're interested in. One tag is first generation college, one is first generation in the United States. They have a general tag. Adversity, economic diversity is another tag.

So they are looking for different specific types of demographics here. And so does that make you feel okay? [00:55:00] Not okay. When you see, like, they actually have highlights specifically in the app for appli applicants who meet these criteria.

Susan Rhee: I mean, I think, I don't feel one way or another, but I think, I just feel like that's the reality of what we're dealing with.

Um, not just in college admissions, but everywhere in the world. And so, and I think these kids know, like these kids are not sort of head, you know, heads in their books and not observant of what's going on around them. And so, you know, they know they have friends that fit some of those boxes and they just, they don't, they don't hold it against them.

They just see it as, listen, that's just another part of their story.

Sam Rhee: Um, they also have tags, um, for legacy, uh, siblings applications, um, disciplinary action, you know, so pretty much if you, you better avoid any kind of disciplinary action in high school. 'cause that's like a deal killer it looks like to me.

Um, and then they also have [00:56:00] ratings based on, um, so they, they list your school. What high school you go to, how many kids are in your class? So there were 126 in Sasha's. Mm-hmm. Class. Um, they don't have a ranking, but I guess it's too early for rank. So they just leave that blank.

Susan Rhee: They don't rank it to white actually.

Yeah.

Sam Rhee: But other schools might. Mm-hmm. Right. Uh, if that's there, then they probably would put that rank in. They list their, um, any standardized score. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then they also now have the categories on which they do a points evaluation. So they have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 numerical scores. One is C curriculum.

And so we had to sort of decipher this, I assume it's basically how difficult the curriculum is at the school or what's offered Yes. So, you know, at your school. So does that seem fair that if, you know, just by virtue of what school you go to, you might get a lower ranking in terms of what's [00:57:00] available for you in terms of your resources?

Susan Rhee: I think every admission event that I've attended, I think they have that in there also because they realize that there are some schools in rural areas, they don't offer any AP testing. And so they sort of have a good rubric of each high school that they're getting these applicants from. And so they're not comparing our school versus a school that's somewhere rural that doesn't have those AP scores.

So I think it's just, um, so they're not cross comparing. So I think it's just for Sasha, what her school's sort of metric is, because then they're gonna use that to compare it to, how did she do in that sort of course curriculum?

Sam Rhee: Okay. So C curriculum, a academic, so I assume it's what your grades were.

Right. In that uh uh, and how they evaluate it are our recommendations. Mm-hmm. And then.

uh, [00:58:00]

EC is extracurriculars. Mm-hmm. So they will rank that. And then the other two, which they're, I guess deemphasizing now is, uh, one is essays, I guess because of all the AI stuff going on. So they're not even going to be ranking that as a numeric.

Mm-hmm. But in, in Sasha's case, they did. And then T is, uh, testing. So they basically scored every aspect, these different aspects on a one to five basis. And then they added it all up, and then you got a score. And there were two people who looked at each application. So one person would look at it, give their total, the other person would to, you know, give their scores, total it up.

And then the aggregate, the two reader's scores gave you a number. Mm-hmm. And did you feel like this was a fair way of assessing these applicants?

Susan Rhee: I mean, I think with the number of applications, it's probably the only way to do it. Um, I think. Duke was test optional and they're still test optional. So I think although they put the scores [00:59:00] down, if you submit it, they don't actually ra rank them.

Um, and so I was not surprised that they did it this way. I was surprised at sort of the rankings, um, because I thought some of them were kind of low, um,

Sam Rhee: which ranking was low.

Susan Rhee: Like I thought for her academics, like, I'm not really sure why she didn't get the top score for that, considering what her body of work was.

Mm-hmm. Um, and so I'm not, you know, so some of that was confusing and her recommendations, um, I thought they ranked her just very average and they, she got recommendations from two teachers that she's had a long history with at the school. So why they just found them to be average, you know, I thought that was kind of surprising.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Sam Rhee: So, um, so at least for Sasha, she ended up. Being deferred. Mm-hmm. And the [01:00:00] comments that were made at the end. So they have comments like, uh, and I guess there's some supervisor person who rereads these applications and then sort of looks at the recommendations that these reviewers make. And it looked like there was a possibility based just on the comments that she was gonna be rejected mm-hmm.

In the regular decision. Um, so there is some leeway in terms of individuality, like it's not just a straight numbers. 'cause if it was trait numbers, she might not have gotten in, even though her numbers looked artificially. I don't know the way that those guys rated it. Um, the person who made comments here actually knew Dwight Englewood as a school and said that, um, she, she was one of the strongest applications from Dwight.

Um. Even though, uh, and said the curriculum is about the best she's going to do there. [01:01:00] So it seems like a lot of these admissions officers do know these schools individually, and they do that. They do take that into consideration. Um, we actually were privy to someone else who was kind enough to give us their application and I don't think the numbers were that much better, but he was an admit and Sasha was a deferred.

You know, maybe deny almost. What, what makes you think these people look at this and what is it that they're looking at that maybe we're not seeing here?

Susan Rhee: I mean, I think they look at the school you're coming from and the school that this, uh, the, the friend of ours that he was coming from is a very heavy stem, very well known school in Bergen County.

Um. And historically this school has gotten in four to five kids to Duke during the early decision process. So it was not surprising to me that even though on paper they look the same, [01:02:00] um, that he was admitted, you know, at Dwight, we know there's only one student that has gone in that it's gotten in, um, every year for the last four to five years.

Mm-hmm. And so, um, and so I wasn't surprised that they might look the same on paper, but I also think it depends on the school that you're coming from. Mm-hmm.

Sam Rhee: I think aps do seem to play a big role in terms of judging academic rigor. They listed that, uh, Sasha took seven aps out of 18, including advanced physics, calculus, um, and that she had gotten fives on all of those.

Uh, they had mentioned her, um, captain of the soccer team for two years. Um, all of these things. Do play a role in terms of when you get down to the nitty gritty of these things, right?

Susan Rhee: Yeah. I mean I think they're looking for the whole student, right? They want someone that's well-rounded. I also think the extracurriculars really help because if a student's very involved and has been involved in their high school, [01:03:00] most likely they're gonna come to your campus and also be very involved.

And what college doesn't want a student that's going to be very active in within their community. And so I think that, you know, they sort of see that as sort of a precursor, right? Like if you did all these things in high school, most likely the chances are you're gonna do this and give back to the university as well.

Sam Rhee: You know, it's funny, one of the comments they made on our friend's application was his essay about the skills for fantasy football being transferrable to other areas of life was nicely written and well-crafted. And I'm like, there are probably 5 million kids who are into fantasy football who, uh, probably.

Uh, could use that essay. Um, but I guess it's really just about how you, how you write it. It could be about anything. I mean, fantasy football to me is one of the most mundane, sort of like, you know, ba, you know, banal things you could talk about, but clearly he crafted it in a way that was [01:04:00] compelling. So I think a lot of it has to just be with your authenticity.

You don't have to find something noble and exotic in order to write about it. It literally could just be about the fact that you love fantasy football. But if you write about it in a really real, true, authentic way, they, they will like it.

it.

Susan Rhee: So

Some of this stuff is, you know, that you're reading this essay that you spent hours drafting in five minutes.

So it has to be something that's easy to read, catches the eye and keeps their interest for five minutes, basically. And who knows? The thing is all random. So maybe his reviewer at Duke loves fantasy football too. Like you just don't know.

Sam Rhee: What, um, if they had not gotten into Duke, which is, I honestly thought neither of them were going to, after they both got deferred, Sasha, there was no way.

And then after that, when Nick got deferred, I was like, there's no way. And both of them I think, had thought about USC, which they did go to, and a little part of me still is like, man, I wish I could [01:05:00] visit them at USC and hang out and in LA and you know, tailgate at USC football games. And I think that was so cool.

But obviously it's not my story, it's the story. It doesn't really matter what I think as a parent, that's just very selfish. Um, do you think they could have been more successful had they gone to a different school?

Susan Rhee: I think they would've been successful no matter where they went. It could have been the last school on their list, if that's what it came down to.

Sam Rhee: What was their last school? I'm just kidding.

Susan Rhee: I don't know. But, um, and so I think. The DNA and the sort of the personality traits that got them to a position to even apply to cer these schools. That's not changing no matter where they go. Because at this point that's in their rubric. That is who they are.

So they would do well no matter where they were. And USC will always have sort of a, sort of a really fun place in my heart because it was the one school that both those our kids got into in January [01:06:00] that just put the pressure off. If everything went to hell in a handbag, they were going to USC, which is a school they both really liked.

Sam Rhee: I loved it. Yeah,

Susan Rhee: I mean, what's not to like? And so I think for Nick and Sasha, it was almost like half the weight had been lifted off their shoulders. 'cause they knew they were going to USC no matter what happened with Duke and the other 10 schools that they applied to

Sam Rhee: fight on.

Susan Rhee: Exactly. That's all Sasha was saying for about two and a half months.

Um, and so, you know, but you know, but the interesting part of it is in hindsight. Now that they're at Duke and he's going to Duke, Sasha said she would've been happy at USC, but she's so glad she's at Duke. So it's one of those things with all these kids, whatever school they go to, they're gonna make it their own.

Sam Rhee: What happens to the kid? And we known a couple who just got nagged by every high choice that they wanted to really go to and ended up going to their sort of backup type school and were absolutely crushed Just, it [01:07:00] just was so disheartening for them. Like how do you as a parent, sort of help them through that?

How do you sort of deal with that? Like it's to feel like you failed after all this effort at age 18. Like that's just soul crushing.

Susan Rhee: I mean, I think it's sort of how the expectations that you as a parent sets up, right? Like I. You know, we just kept on telling our kids, it does not matter where you go to school.

We don't care where you go to school, and that it doesn't define you. And really just work hard at where you are. And then maybe if you wanna go to grad school, that is more of a meritocracy. That is more of what you've done. Whereas a lot of the college admissions process is luck. Um, and it's random to some extent.

And so. We were very careful not to categorize a school as good or not as good because to me, the only requirement that I had on their list was, you better be happy going to number [01:08:00] 20 because that could be where you end up.

Sam Rhee: I mean, you could say that.

Susan Rhee: You can say that, but that's all you can do, right, is just reinforce the fact that we're not gonna be disappointed no matter where they go.

If they don't get into what they think is one of their top schools. Listen, you can say all this, but it's kind of a grieving process for them too. They've put all this time, four years of their life, like blood, sweat, and tears. You just need to give them space to process it, and once they process it, they will come back around.

Um, but you need to give them that time.

Sam Rhee: How happy are you now that this process is over, we don't have another child.

Susan Rhee: Thank God we don't have another child. Let's

Sam Rhee: to go through this.

Susan Rhee: Could you do it again? No, really, I really could not do it again. I think, um, in, you know, I'm so happy that they are at their number one choices.

Selfishly, I'm very happy that they're together, um, together, but sort of, we'll be separate 'cause it's a huge campus and Sasha's going abroad for the, his first semester. [01:09:00] Um, but you know, it would've worked out either way. Like if he was at USC it would've been fine too. I mean, we were already planning trips out there and whatnot and so I'm happy that they're happy in where they are, but I think they secretly also know that if it had not worked out, they would be fine too.

Sam Rhee: What is the last piece of advice you could give to someone who has a kid who's a freshman, sophomore about to start this process? What would you tell the parents of that child?

Susan Rhee: I would tell them that it's a long process. I would say that if you have a father and a mother in the household, that you choose one parent to be the one that's going to be the nagger, the one that's sort of in the weeds with the kid, because some the kids need a release and a break, so when they're sick of you, they can go to the other parent and talk about trivial, mundane things like NBA games or whatnot.

Um, so just have it be sort of centered on one person and to [01:10:00] just keep reminding them that this does not define them. And do not call a school good or bad, or, you know, you should have, you know, you should have gotten into a much better school. Like why didn't you get into that school? Because at the end of the day, these kids have put everything they have into it and the outcome is really completely out of their control at that hand, at that point.

Sam Rhee: Thank you for sharing your experience. I really appreciate it. I hope, uh, people listening, uh. Understand that, and if it turns out to be a complete failure by your, your child's standard, I think you're right. You have to lay the groundwork ahead of time so that if that happens, it's not the end all and be all.

We heard of a kid at Andover or Phillips Academy, one of the private schools up in Massachusetts who killed himself after he didn't get into his choice of schools. He committed suicide. And there was actually one, there was another, uh, [01:11:00] incident, I think where someone tried to, and, and they stopped that other student.

And so this, this is very serious for kids. Like this is heart stopping serious, literally for these kids. And so as parents, as much as it is important to us, it, there's nothing more important than just supporting your kid. And, and if they fail completely at the process. I have failed completely at many things in my life.

Like many of those things turned out to be catalysts for doing something else. And so I hope one of the things we can build into our kids, and I don't know how much of a role or how good we did with our kids, I'm not sure we'll have to wait and see.

They've been pretty lucky so far. It's just resilience after failure.

And so this is a long process. Failure is always lurking, um, around the corner with this, uh, if they turn out, no matter where they end up going. Um, I think it has to be a, you know, something where we as parents have sort of [01:12:00] prepped them to, to deal with it. And, uh, sometimes it works out great, sometimes it doesn't.

Um, I sympathize with every parent and every kid out there, so good luck. And, uh, I hope that they all find where they're, where they're meant to be. So, thank you, sus.

Susan Rhee: You're welcome.