S01E09 - David Syvertsen - Online Programming

December 18, 2020 - Today's episode is again with David Syvertsen, owner and coach at my box, CrossFit Bison, in Midland Park New Jersey. We talk about supplemental and online programming for CrossFit, such as CompTrain, Invictus, Misfit and Dave's own program, Next Level. If you are already paying for a gym membership and working out, what is the benefit of paying for additional programming? We delve into supplemental programs, as well as discuss Dave's program, Next Level.

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S01E09 DAVID SYVERTSEN - ONLINE PROGRAMMING

Full transcript (click here for PDF)

Sam Rhee: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Botox and burpees. I'm Dr. Sam Rhee, plastic surgeon and CrossFit coach. Host of this podcast, where we talk about plastic surgery, CrossFit, and everything in between, you can find more information at our website, botoxandburpees.com and make sure to like, and subscribe wherever you listen to our podcast. 

Today's episode is again with David Syvertsen owner and coach at my box, CrossFit, bison and Midland park, New Jersey. We talk about supplemental and online programming for CrossFit, such as CompTrain Invictus Misfit and Dave's own program next level. If you are already paying for a gym membership and working out, what is the benefit of paying for additional programming? We delve into supplemental programs, as well as discuss Dave's program. Next level

Now, the next topic we're going to talk about , it's growing in popularity, especially I think with this year's pandemic, are online or supplemental programming. There's a lot of programs out there. They've been around for a while, too. Like Invictus, Misfit, CompTrain you have your own, Next Level.

Even people who were at CrossFit HQ, staffers like, James Hobart, they do HamPlan now. I know you have your own training program.  you've taken other people's training programs. let's talk a little bit about these programs.

Dave Syvertsen: [00:01:26] So a lot of this can fall into a macro level picture of group programming and individual program, individualized custom slash group, right? Are our cross bison programming is for a group of people. You come in here, you do the watt, no matter what it is, no matter what you're good at, no matter what you're bad at, you're doing that class SWAT, right? The individual approach, the customer approach is really for you individually.

it's not meant for the masses. It's Hey, this is what you want. Goal-wise. This is what you're good at. This is what you're bad at. We're going to take all that information and we're going to create a program and I'm actually taking a course right now. The OPEX CCP course, it's four months long and it's probably about seven to 10 hours a week of work.

And it's that whole class centers around online coaching slash more. I would say individualized coaching. and that whole, the OPEX experience, Is what they call it is really they're against group programming. That is for a group of people really, because they think that why could you have a former division, one athlete in here?

Why would they be doing the same programming as someone that's never seen the gym before or safety? If someone can't squat. Why this warning. if someone can deadlift 600 pounds and has a huge deadlifting background, a powerlifting background, why would they be doing the same bison program, deadlifts cycle as someone that can't touch their toes.

Sam Rhee: [00:02:58] But the CrossFit philosophy is you scale this, meet the same stimulus 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:03:02] for them. That's where they failed to really address, like it's, we're not all just going to cross a.com and doing the workout of the day. It's, the, our program is. General, and then it gets specific with people and that's one of the coaches jobs here is you need to be able to pivot and adjust.

Like I have someone here that can jump for the next two months. We're doing box jumps Monday and double unders Tuesday and double unders Friday. So it's our job and I'm not changing the workout for the gym. Absolutely not. He's going to come in here on those days. He's going to do the workout. We scale the jumping, so that's where, they fail to address it.

And I think it's just part of how they sell their technique, because at the end of the day, if you are going to have individualized programming and it's, five days a week, six days a week, For four or five weeks, a month, 52 weeks a year. It's not going to, it's going to be more expensive than what you would pay for in a gym setting, right?

Like when you pay a gym membership, you're here for the classes, the use of the equipment, the coaching, the programming that it was not made for you. But if someone's going to sit down and program for you individually, that can take a decent chunk of time, especially if they're looking at your strengths, weaknesses, goals, limitations.

And so that's where I think. Individualized program individual program. It's more expensive than you think, right? Because there's more time that's needed for that person to do it for you. And that's where like these OPEX coaches, if you hired one, you're looking at 300 bucks a month, but it's, and that's just the program.

You need to go get your own stuff. You need to go to your own gym, you need to pay that membership. So I think there's an economic factor to it. The, this whole like online programming. And I think it's really popular because. At some point you do a lot of people have the desire to be like, all right, I no longer want to suck at handstand pushups.

My gym only programs it once a week and I can't get there some days, So how am I going to get better at it? So that's where you need to start throwing in, your own individual custom program. Now 

Sam Rhee: [00:04:52] there are different types of programs. So for example, CompTrain, or they have a group programming, but then they also give you feedback, let's say on your own.

Performance right within that group programming. And 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:05:07] yeah. So you would call that like a template program. Yeah. Where it's like, Hey, we're sending a bunch of people, this program, but you'll get feedback on your performance. That's what you're saying. 

Sam Rhee: [00:05:16] Now, let me ask you this. If you're at a CrossFit box, you're paying a decent chunk of money for an expensive gym membership. So unless you have all this crap at home, or you have some other gym that you're going to go to, Why would you do this? Or why would you do this in addition to what you already have? 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:05:34] So I just think it comes down to extra work. I think there are people that have desire, time, energy effort, to want to put more time into what they normally do at the gym.

Like in 2017, That was the year I had. I started having a lot of people inquire about, Hey, I love the bison programming. I'm going to keep coming here, but I want to do some extra work. I don't necessarily want to do six extra wads per week, but I want some extra work to help me get closer to my muscle up goal.

My toes of our goal, my lifting, my strength, my engine. And I started just like pro just sending like little programs out here and there. And then I'm like, all right, this is a lot of people here it's taking a lot of time. Let's maybe turn this into something that could be a little bit more formal, right?

Not like a message at 10:00 PM on Facebook. Hey, we'll do this workout. So I started next level programming, October, 2017, probably had I want to say 15 people, different goals. Like I made everyone like, write me an email. It's what's the goal? what's the point of view on extra work, right?

And because I actually would try to talk people out of it. I remember I had someone at bison said you just talked me out of doing it. And I was like, okay, I want to know why you want this and what are you looking to get out of it? Because your answer to the thing that you really want could probably just, you need to change the approach a little bit with your CrossFit programming five days a week.

and, but there are some people that know, I have a good approach here. I want this fix. I want to work out the group, but when I'm, I have the extra hour at home or the extra hour on Sundays, I want to be able to come in and work on a few weaknesses. And that's where a coach, a good coach can really map out a plan for you to get better at those wounds without compromising what you're doing at your normal gym program.

So how have your results been with next level so far? I've had a lot of, I want to say. Since the start I've had probably 30, 35 people on it, some touch and go, this is my outlook on it. Like I said, previously in a different podcast, A new program is always fun and exciting. You're going to be stimulated.

Okay. But after that stimulation ends, it's going to be up to you to keep going with it. You only know if a program works for you. If you are consistent, I'm humble enough to say that, like I'm not, it's not my program. That's going to get anyone better. It's not okay, but I know I can help push you in the right direction.

But at the end of the day, I ain't doing the work for you. I'm not showing up to the gym on a Sunday at 7:00 AM and night after you drank, right? Like that's going to be on you. And the benefits of the people that I've seen actually be the ones that did all the work that was prescribed or most I should say.

And did it for more than a few weeks. They've seen the necessary slash wanted results, generally speaking. I have a couple people where I wish man, like I probably should've spent a little bit more time with them on ring muscle up position work. Core work, some stability work so that they can catch the ring a little bit more confidence.

Yeah. And and I'm thinking about someone more specific. But, so like I'll look at that and be like, from that perspective, it's not a success. But then I'll look at someone else that couldn't do more than two TOSA bar in a row. When she started a year later, she's doing 15 and that came from the accessory work.

And that's according to her, not according to me. And I'll always deflect it because at the end of the day, she's the one that did the work. I wrote some stuff on a piece of paper, But that program, I think from that perspective is a success, but this is why I signed up for this course was I wanted to get better at it.

And I think there's a few things that I was missing for a while. I've always had a passion for programming, but it came from this, I just liked the right cool wads that people enjoy doing. And Hey, if you do them hard and you have some consistency, you'll get better, but you'll plateau.

And I think a good program prevents you from plateauing. 

Sam Rhee: [00:09:18] Is it the accountability that helps too, because if you were really motivated, you could find there's no shortage of free 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:09:25] programming out there and quality programs. 

Sam Rhee: [00:09:27] And if you just wanted to say, get better at your back squat, you could find a bazillion things to help you with 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:09:32] accountability.

Yes. But it's under the bigger picture of the relationship. Like the relationship I think is crucial. There needs to be communication. I think I've fallen a little short there with next level where like, when, there's a period. I had 25 at once and I just wasn't. Giving enough feedback consistently, on the little days, like on the big ones, I was usually a little bit more plugged in, but I like the Bulgarian split squat days with step ups in between.

I probably didn't give enough feedback or at least just show some again, positive reinforcement, truly. That's where you need to be a true leader sometimes. Because I signed up for a coach for the first time, like a really formal coach last November. And it did. It made me feel good if you just simply wrote back, dude, that snatch looks a lot better today and that was it.

He didn't help me, but it was a positive reinforcement. And then we had a little bit of a relationship. We met via phone calls, video calls every two weeks. And there was a relationship factor there that, all of a sudden you start talking about each other's kids and families and what are you going through?

Why, why was it a hard time for you to get the mobility in this week? You don't get that from a general online program, or your nine 99, street parking membership, It's I think the relationship is a huge part of the online coaching. I think the 

Sam Rhee: [00:10:46] first thing I think it seems like when you have these online or supplemental fitness programs is you as an athlete have to want.

To do it for a specific reason. Yeah. In your case, you wanted to pursue competitive, CrossFit, And so you needed someone to help you with that. Yep. some people, like you said, want to work on certain aspects of their, workouts because they struggle with it in their everyday workout skills.

Right. 

And they're sick and tired of not being able to get a toes to bar and they need some additional health. Some people want to work on. stuff that's related to, but not necessarily specific to CrossFit Ali, Olympic lifting or strongman work or something that, that is overlapping with what they do within the gym.

And I guess all of those things are legit for anybody. what makes, so what was your experience with conquer? Okay. And what makes next level. Such a good plan based on compared to what 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:11:45] we've seen so far. So with conquer, my experience with them was positive. It was very positive. It started in November and it ended like the month after Brock was born because I just didn't at the time too.

there was. Three to four sessions that I can combine into two different trips to the gym per day. And once he was here, it just didn't happen. couldn't do it. And part of the reason why I liked conquer was like, I didn't have to think about it. Like I have a lot going on and it was just one less thing I had to do was map myself out.

So I just, every day get to my phone. It's there. That's what I'm doing for the today. And that's it not throwing in extra stuff. Trust the guys, trust the coaching, trust the program. and I would say the negative on it was, I was almost always by myself. And it's, I feed off of energy of others. I can be disciplined enough to come in here most days and work out hard.

But I can't tell you how many times I came in here, especially during the beginning of the pandemic, when the gym is closed. I just, it just didn't feel right. Like I just, I was like, I was trying to jam up the music, but I was just, there's no other energy in the room. And if I, myself not happy, not in a good mood.

short things. I don't do the extra set. I probably don't go for the weight that I was supposed to go for. And it's tough to do stuff by yourself. All right. how does that compare to the next level is that's going to be something that you really need to dive into? Like I would say it should be a supplement to your normal training at a gym.

I just feel like big picture. A lot of the people that are on next level. Yeah. We need the classes to have the consistent energy. But the other, the skills and movements and III moms and energy and pacing work that we do that can be done on yourself on your own, because it's not necessarily ever going to be like a max effort approach.

I would say one out of 10 days, like I have three different kinds of workouts on next level. Now it's either called a train it's called test, or it's called compete heat every day is one of those. And I always say about 70 to 80% of your workouts are trained. Training where you're not going for this max, like balls out wa like all that effort where it helps to have other people in the room.

It's more about control. Be cognizant of how long things take. I'm not looking for the best score. I don't really care what your capability is. I also have tests. That's just something every now and then we'll test maybe one a week. It could be a row. It could be a workout. It could be a lift. It could be a gymnastics movement.

That test is not again. It's not for me to be impressed by your score. It's for, to give us. The athlete and the coach a metric on what we can do with certain movements. So if I'm going to tell you how many shirts, pants, and pushups can you do in a row, you have to know it. If you don't need to figure it out so that when I'm programming your strict pants, they push up IE moms.

I'm using 25 to 30% of that number. I need to know it, so that would be the purpose of a test workout, and then compete. Compete is only for the people that are really have competitive goals. It's not need to be, you're trying to go to the games. It can just be like, Hey, I want to do really well in the open this year.

So that would be once every two or three weeks, I'm going to throw a score at you, a number at you that you have to try and beat, just to give you, put your head because a lot of competing just comes down to the mental grind of really going after it, sending it. And that's where I feel like that's important just for the competitors, that really have a high end goal.

And so that's where I feel like the next level approach for me is different than what conquer was. Like. I really, there was a lot of times where I didn't have the motivation by myself and I didn't really know what the approach was or the workout where I like really liked to explain what I want you to get out of this workout.

And I want you to ask questions. So that's where the relationship comes back in. If I was a general program that has 600 people. I can't respond to people that have questions, like maybe someone gets lucky on a message board, but now I know that, three years into this, now this is where I could do a better job.

And that's where I'm really committed right now 

Sam Rhee: [00:15:26] you have four levels of it. And so what are the different levels that are involved 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:15:30] level is, and, they go down, they go up and cost, right? The first level is just a template program. And this is, this would be good for anyone to use that. Just Hey, I work at a bison four to five days a week.

I just want some extra work to build up some capacity here, strength, there that's a program that I send to everyone that signs up for it. So it's not really for you, but it's a program that you could probably benefit from. And I try to put in a lot of stuff that you just simply won't do in the bison programming.

we throw in a lot of bike work. We throw in long conditioning work. That's 60 minutes long. we throw in a lot of accessory work that you could do in the gym, but it just, the logistics and equipment that we have here, we can't do it with a class. So I try that's where, but it's general, it's not for you.

It's just like general fitness, but it will help, but it's not necessarily aimed at getting you specifically better at that movement. The second level is, Hey, I just want maybe two to three, maybe four workouts a week in addition to what I'm doing, but they are centered around me. And really they're going to help me out.

And I have this goal of getting this movement down, Pat. I want to be able to do it by next year. Let's do that. And this is my second goal. This is my third goal. Level three is just simply that same approach, but a little bit more volume. And you had again, you have to have the time, I think that's one thing.

A lot of people lose track of that's going to take, three to four hours a week probably of you doing work for the previous levels, one to two hours. And the final level is like this all encompassing. I'm going to program every single thing you do for you every single week. This is what you're following.

There's nutritional guidance on that. There's recovery guidance on that. And it's basically just, I am, I'm going to be basically in control of everything you do in relation to the health and fitness field. And that's that's like the most expensive one. That's the top one. I limit how many people can do that.

And those are like the four levels right now. I think that if you have very specific goals, you've been doing this a long time level two, or level three is what you would need. If you're just like, I just want some extra work that doesn't need to be anything crazy. Let's go level one. but like on level two, level three, I have a spreadsheet made for that person and I write down their five weaknesses.

Sam Rhee: [00:17:37] What if I don't have anything at home to be able to do these workouts 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:17:40] with, that's going to be part of what we communicate about is like, what can we do here at our gym or at the gym that you're at, where I can start programming things for you and using the equipment. Like the tricky part here right now at the gym is we have a cap on how many people can be in the gym at once.

And. It can be distracting if there's a class working and there's someone else doing their own thing in the corner. And, we do have to dance around that. We do have the open gym on Sundays where I say, Hey, you should be able to get two or three sessions in. On that day. I know Kathleen was here this morning.

She did three of them, I believe. And if you have an hour on a Sunday, you can usually do that. Because again, these we're not doing Fran, we're not doing an open workout. we're working on something that you need work on. That's going to take 15 minutes except the long conditioning pieces.

And I'm not going to send your central nervous system down the shitter, right? Like I'm not, we're not doing these max intense pieces. if you don't have stuff at home, we're going to have to talk about what you do, have, what you can get, and then what you can do here. In addition to the classes. And again, this is where the communication comes in.

if it doesn't work out, it can't work out. 

Sam Rhee: [00:18:45] what if I'm at bison now and I'm, an athlete and I'm like, man, I'm already paying so much to come here and now there are going to be these like special athletes who are getting special training. They're going to be so much better, but they're paying more and like it's a racket.

And now I have to pay more to try to be as good as these guys are going to be. And what's going on with that? 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:19:05] that was probably when I considered doing this, started considering starting to do this, 2017. That was like the biggest thing I was like, I don't want to cause a divide in the gym, but that's where I just expect grownups to be grownups.

that's where I'm. I have stopped thinking about that, to be honest, if someone is willing to work harder and do more, what does that have to do with you? like why do you need to be concerned? we do have very strict rules with the athletes on next level. They are not, they are second fiddle.

If they're here during a class, doing their own thing in the corner, and I've had a few run-ins with that where I will kick you out in a heartbeat. If you think you can come here. And take over a section of the gym during a class, or you can be loud while the coach is coaching, and that's where I want people to know at bison that are not on next level.

I look out for them at the gym 10 times more than I'm going to look out for the people at next level during the class always has priority and always will. if the thoughts since your head that man, I'm already paying a lot and if I want to get better, now I have to pay even more. Then I'll just, I'll nod my head and probably agree with you.

if you do want, my time or a coach's time that you find online and you want them to put, give you attention, you're going to have to pay, and I have a hard time saying that, less hard time than I used to. I don't feel guilty saying it, but I don't want to come across the wrong way that I'm trying to pinch every penny out of people.

But I do know, like my time is worth something and this is time that I won't be spending on myself draining. It's a time that I won't be spending with my family. And once I start bringing that up in my head, I'll charge whatever I want. And then if you want to do it, you do it. If you don't, but I'm not going to, it's not just the time I spend in front of my computer doing this and responding.

It's also the time when spending away from the people I care the most about. Yeah. 

And I would say it works because the the coaches that coach here are constantly giving feedback 

for sure. 

Sam Rhee: [00:21:01] To the athletes here. I don't think there's any reason for an athlete not to get better just by being a member here. Yeah. And I did, I that's exactly what I did for years and years 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:21:12] I'll say this. If we want to go down that path, if I'm going to rank athletes in our gym, according to the open, Because I don't like saying good and bad, the best people, the best athletes in the gym that had the highest capacity.

The strongest lifts. They're not on that level, So it doesn't mean that you can't get better at CrossFit unless you're on next level. It's not true. It's do you have the time? Do you have the energy? Do you want to put the money into it? And if you do, let's go for it. But if you don't, it's not like you're going to be left in the dark, look around the gym.

we have so many good athletes that just come here, walk five days a week, go home. Yeah. and like it's proof in the pudding that it can work. And even with that, we'll give like someone the other day asked me to write down just a little squat program for them to do on Sundays.

Did it not charging for that? That's not part of the next level program. It wasn't, it didn't take long. And like we're always going to be here helping people out from the CrossFit perspective. that's where I always want to make sure next level is not better than bison. Bison is not better than next level.

It's just a different genre of coaching. And I think everyone needs to accept that. 

Sam Rhee: [00:22:18] If you were to look at most of the athletes here, what are the things that you think they would need to work on to get better on average 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:22:27] learning, how to pace, like really knowing themselves at each movement, like how, if you have a high volume handstand pushup workout, and you can't go on broken or you shouldn't.

No, how many you can do without burning yourself out. Know what your pace is on a row when you're tired, know when it's medium know when it's on a max effort, those are the things I think that, gymnastics skill lifts, we don't snatch here at bison a lot. So if you have a competitive goal, And you come to me with next levels of desire.

That will probably be a main focus because the snatching to me has always been tough to program in a gym because it's just, it's a cool movement, but there's a lot of prerequisites you should have, before really going after a snatch program, a snatch cycle. and I'm talking like the weightlifting snatch and the heavy snatching, not, cycling a barbell.

And, so that's where I think that's the main difference right. There is. I think that there's a certain things that. Certain movements that people need to really be aware of where they stand and where they could be if they just make a couple changes slash just more awareness. And I think that when you have a next level program, that's aimed specifically at that you gain that awareness, you gain the capacity.

And you're just more efficient. I'm across it as so much about efficiency. You just gain so much efficiency across the board. 

Sam Rhee: [00:23:43] How many athletes do you expect to be training in this program? 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:23:48] That's a good question. I get asked by Ash all the time, because it is it's going to demand a lot more attention.

And again, I don't want to approach that like 25 number again by myself anyway. And I've had a couple of people asked and I've thought about a couple of people maybe getting on board and helping out the coach. It. especially if it goes, starts to really go outside of bison. I think my number right now is 10.

I wouldn't want more than 10 small. Yeah. Because you're really looking at giving that person on average per week, an hour to two hours of attention. sometimes there'll be less. Sometimes it'll be more, but a lot of time. Yeah. So if I'm saying, if you start adding that up, 20, if you have 20, 25 people it's yeah.

I just don't know how doable that would be with my current schedule outside of next level, because again, next level is an accessory to my life. It's not, priority. 

Sam Rhee: [00:24:37] if you had 50 at level one, that's no problem. 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:24:40] Right?  and I, that's why I have caps at like that. If I had like someone that was level four and I was like, and five of them that would take up a lot of, a lot of time per week and I wouldn't have, and they would not get what they're paying for.

So yes, if I had template people, volume would be my goal, my volumes, not really my goal with it right now. My goal with it is let's make sure I'm doing a good job that I can handle it before I build up volume. And. No, it really put more attention on the people specifically. And even the level one, it's not like they don't get attention on it.

It's just that the programming was not built for them. And for them specifically, 

Sam Rhee: [00:25:17] are you using any metrics to figure out pre post. 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:25:20] In terms of progress. Yeah. So I do have, I have a list of, tests for barbell lifts, gymnastics, and I quit. And I say other because I don't know where to put wobble in double unders, but like I have these where I want to know how many you can do in a minute, how many you could do on broken, how many you can do in three minutes.

Then I have a whole list of a whole spreadsheet of conditioning tests that if you're with me for a long time, you'll eventually see them. And there's a 60 minute row on there. there's a 250 meter row and everything in between. And these are pre-post metrics that like I'll use Kathleen example.

She needs a work on power, power output on the rower. Like she can stay at an even pace for a long time, but we need to get her shorter rows a little bit more, little Pat, more like more powerful, quicker, faster without blowing her up. So there's a metric that I'm going to test her on next week.

That will probably retest before the open. And that will help me guide her when the rowing workout comes up in the open. If it's a power output, workout that say, this needs to be your pace. Even if you're uncomfortable, we've proven that you can do this. You can do that. But those are, there are hundreds of metrics that you can use in the sport.

And it's hard to say you're going to get tests on every single one, but the ones that I feel are most important. There will be pre-post progress, no progress. And if it doesn't work, you go back to the drawing board. it's I always say a good program is going to help. It's not, there's not a program out there that you just look at and be like, Hey, this is what's going to get me to the level.

you have to be able to adjust and pivot athlete and coach well, 

Sam Rhee: [00:26:47] It sounds interesting. I think I'm going to have to try it out. Yeah. I don't think I would want level four where you're like, no, it's every aspect of my life. That'd be a little scary. 

Dave Syvertsen: [00:26:55] It's funny. I just, in my OPEX course, we literally spent the first 30 minutes talking about bowel movements and he's if you're really going to get in deep with someone and their health and their fitness, and this class is more about health and longevity, not sport.

He's very specific about that. But he says they need to have, he goes into how long their poop is, what color poop there is. And if it's not, you need to go into what they're eating to change. it's funny that when I, level four would be pretty invasive. 

Sam Rhee: [00:27:24] All right. I want to see the first person. All right. 

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