S02E03 - David Syvertsen - Cheating in CrossFit
January 22, 2021 - Today's episode is again with David Syvertsen, owner and coach at my box, CrossFit Bison, in Midland Park New Jersey.
We discuss cheating in CrossFit. Whether it's shaving reps, not locking out your elbows, or shorting your wallball height, few things invite as much emotion as witnessing someone who looks like they are cheating in a workout.
We discuss different forms of cheating, why athletes might cheat and what do do about it.
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2021.01.22 S02E03 DAVID SYVERTSEN - CHEATING IN CROSSFITFull transcript (click here for PDF)Sam Rhee: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Botox and burpees. I'm Dr. Sam Rhee, plastic surgeon and CrossFit coach. Host of this podcast, where we talk about plastic surgery, CrossFit, and everything in between, you can find more information at our website, Botox and burpees.com and make sure to like, and subscribe wherever you listen to our podcast.
This week's episode is again with David Syvertsen owner and coach at my box, CrossFit, bison in Midland park, New Jersey. We discuss cheating and CrossFit. Whether it's shaving reps, not locking out your elbows or shorting your wall ball height, few things invite as much emotion as witnessing someone who looks like they are cheating in a workout. We discussed different forms of cheating, why athletes might cheat and what to do about it.
The next topic is when I was really looking forward to talking to, because it just instills such a sense of outrage and that's cheating, especially cheaters and CrossFit. I have been accused of cheating on occasion. I have had someone come up to me after a workout and say, Wow, Sam, that was awfully fast. And I know
Dave Syvertsen: [00:01:10] I'm just like waiting for your reaction, right?
Sam Rhee: [00:01:12] Did you really did you really finish all those reps and then the other, and then I have been like next to someone and being , I swore I was ahead of that guy. And how the hell did he finish a minute faster than me. Yep. What's your experience with cheating and CrossFit?
Dave Syvertsen: [00:01:25] So like we, CrossFit is even if you're not here to compete, it is competitive. All right. Even if you're not competitive, like you'll know, someone was ahead of you, you were ahead of someone and there are egos involved with everybody that does anything. So there are, you have an ego. I have an ego and there are, it's hard to avoid the thought sometimes wow, that person beat me.
Oh, wow. I beat that person. When you do get beat, all right. Or someone simply finishes something before you all right. Not that you're going home saying I lost, someone finished that and it. And you know that you were ahead of them around the head of them, a few reps ahead of them.
How do they keep up with me? I knew I did this faster. It's hard to not at least think about the fact that that person's definitely cheating or they did it wrong. They made an accounting mistake, something like that. It happened last week. Someone gave me a score last week. I didn't say it out loud because I don't wanna embarrass her, but she.
Gave me a score. And I was like, you were definitely not that far, but I'm just gonna write it, blah, blah, blah. So it's not always, if we're going to keep the discussion specific to cheating when someone is too into the ego part of winning, losing more than they are about training, working out, getting exercise, they will shave a few things here and there.
And so that they can have this, three seconds of glory on the whiteboard that has a good score next to their name. So it makes them feel good. And it's I've never understood why you would do it on purpose. To try and cheat. If these, at the end of the day, if you know you cheated, I guess that's a bigger picture thing.
If you cheated what about that makes you feel good?
Sam Rhee: [00:03:03] I looked into it and people argue, there were three reasons that people might cheat in workouts. Okay. The first is. That they deserved a good time. Like they, they weren't really performing up to par today, but I know usually this is where I should be.
Yeah. So I'm going to put myself there because that's really what I deserve. Yeah. That's the first. All right. The second is I just, can't let this guy when he's such an asshole and I just, I know I'm better than him. And you know what, I'm just gonna, I'm just going to give myself that time.
And the third is similar. It's just, I'm not performing up to par and
Dave Syvertsen: [00:03:38] let me just get that name because I, what I do think, especially with us, like our gym, the way our gym runs, this is we have a whiteboard at the end of the day, we'd take the picture of the whiteboard.
And we posted on beasts of bison for tracking if we ever want to repeat a workout, but it's also an accountability thing. And we started doing it, I think the first year that we did it and people loved it. So we just stay with it. I do think some are under the impression that everyone is clicking refresh on their phone at nine, 15 every night, waiting for that whiteboard to see what their scores of everyone elsewhere, where I would say 95% of our gym doesn't even look at the picture.
They might they might,
Sam Rhee: [00:04:09] I would say 50%.
Dave Syvertsen: [00:04:12] They're competitive because the nature of our gym, my point behind saying that is, I really don't think that there's that much day to day fought. Of what you got in your score, right? There are people when I come to wad in the class, I will look at numbers again, not to try and beat them, but it's like right now I have something I'm going to shoot after.
But if I quote, lose or I quote when it doesn't change my mentality that night, and unless it's Dallas in the open. But I think that the desire of what other people think about your scores and how well you did. It's it drives people and in a good, it could drive them in a good way.
It pushes them, keeps the intensity up, keeps them stimulated, but it could also send them down this hole of every single day is a competition to the point where they might, without even subconsciously start cheating and it becomes a routine. And I've seen that happen. I seen that happen here.
Sam Rhee: [00:05:05] Okay. So let's talk about different types of cheating. Yeah. There's the cheating that I've done the sort of, I do that on occasion. I have crap wad brain. Yup. I wrote down the wrong time, tell you or you always accuse me of losing count one way where I forget and then, So I, and then I don't keep track and then I'm done.
Oh. But I didn't really I lost count that I had one more round to do. Or I looked at the clock wrong when I was like finishing at the end or,
Dave Syvertsen: [00:05:35] My eyes, like all these aren't even cheating. It's you making a mistake, but the perception. Is someone else will be like, Oh, Sam's cheating on that. He didn't do three rounds. He did two.
Sam Rhee: [00:05:45] So that's why I feel like when I see someone do that, like half more than half the time it's actually.
Dave Syvertsen: [00:05:50] Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I'll say the qualifier workout that we did for legends, there was a workout that was like 10, nine all the way down to one TOSA bar and they have 25 doubles after each set or twenty-five doubles before you set whatever.
And. I watched my video and I count, I did 24 every round. There's just something off with my counting, like in my head it was 25 and I'm sending a video in for my, so like you can't. You'd be an idiot to purposely cheat. That's a mistake. And I don't think I have any impact on anything, but, that happens.
Sam Rhee: [00:06:20] Yeah. It happens. I think the other thing that I have seen myself do is, you're doing 150 wall balls for Karen. You're on your, and I mentioned this earlier, 145th, you don't quite hit over the target. And you're like yeah. Yeah. All right. And then you're seeing
Dave Syvertsen: [00:06:35] my hand up. I've done that before, just so you know.
Sam Rhee: [00:06:37] And then later I just feel so guilty. Shut up. Yeah. I have just that one. Like why did I just do one more wall when wall like mess up my time. And so that's the one that I think all of us have been in. Yep.
How about the ones where you're, someone's not full range of motion. They're not hitting squat depth. They're not locking out. And they're still thinking that they're that's legit,
this we've had discussions with this as coaches, like it and this happens a lot on when we record weights let's say, just throw in a back squat, right?
Whether there's someone that's around a bunch of other people, they're feeling good lifting this guy got that. This girl got that. Okay. I'm going to go from my one rep max and hits 335, but he didn't squat all the way down. And I think he knew, but. No, he yells out 335, what we did for a while.
And I don't know if we'll do this again, but we used to write down three 35, make them happy, but we would write ROM next to their name, range of motion. And that basically said he didn't really squat, and like you would get people to come up and be like, dude, what does that, what is ROM like range of motion?
You definitely were not squatting. Sorry, man. And then, I go back and forth with this all my head. Part of me just wants to be consistent like the perfectionist we were talking about when we talk about coaching styles, like if you do it, you didn't do it. And I don't, it's not that I don't want to give someone credit, but it really, I go back to this it's a legit, honest approach.
I don't want you to think you can squat 335. You can't. But you didn't squat all the way down, and it's so like when we start throwing let's say, do a set of 10 at, 70% try to go for that. They're going to use 70% of the number they can't squat. So that's where from my point of view, I can be doing a disservice to them.
If I don't tell them you didn't squat. I do think some people are not aware. Like I have a lot of people come up and we have to squat with dude. Was I all the way down. Like I don't even know, that's why I video tape my squats a lot as I get older I feel like I have a harder time getting lower and lower.
So I do videotape a lot and there are days I'm like, man, that's close, and Ash will be the first one to tell me too. She was David. I don't know if he goes, like you're at parallel below parallel. And, but there are also, you do have to bring up the people that will purposely not squat so they get the night nice number next to their name and.
It's, that's a habit that can be built early on. Like when we work with beginners, like you really have to hammer it in. Stop using the 20 pound wall ball, get the six out and just squat all the way down, wall balls of all people. Like you get tired, like you do not want to squat all the way down.
You just want to bend your knees and throw that shit up.
Mike Dela Torre caught me out on it just even two weeks ago. I still think you're right. I'm not squatting all the way down.
Dave Syvertsen: [00:09:05] It's not like you're sitting there like trying to cheat, like I do think there are some people that just generally don't know their bodies.
Enough to know if they're. Locking out their elbows. Like I really think, like I don't want to look down on people and just say Oh, you're cheating. I just think some people just lack awareness or they're just concentrating on something else. How heavy their breathing, their midline stability, not hurting their back.
That they're just not focused on what they're supposed to be doing for the proper range of motion.
Sam Rhee: [00:09:28] I think catching early and instilling early is important because I think I've seen some athletes. Who've been doing it a certain way the whole time. And then suddenly if you try telling them, Hey, listen on your thrusters.
You're not going all the way. And you're not locking all of them. They get really mad because they've just been doing that and they get pissed off. They're , Why are you taking reps away from me for this? This is not,
Dave Syvertsen: [00:09:49] I'm still working hard, deserve credit for it. It's tough. I've have had some hostile situations.
I've had people like in the open, like yell at a judge right in the CrossFit open. That's the only time of the year, unless we do a benchmark workout where you have a judge and if you don't do something correctly, they say it's a no rep. And. There are some people that just, they can't handle it.
They blow up. I've seen it happen. They yell at someone for no repping. I'm like, dude, you're the one that didn't do it. Like you want me to cheat with you? Is that what you're asking me to do? Come on. We're not the new England Patriots here. Nice.
Sam Rhee: [00:10:21] All right, Homer. So let's suppose we see someone and they're cheating and it's not okay.
And let's assume that we've given them the benefit of doubt. It's not just one time. Yeah, just two times, but we're just seeing it a bunch of times as an athlete. Yeah. What do we do? So there's a couple of different suggestions that I saw. Some of these are funny for me. One is work out next to the person, but go rep for rep, like synchronize with them.
So you're almost like their counter and that way they just don't have the ability to cheat
Dave Syvertsen: [00:10:56] that's that would be tough. You have to be a pretty good athlete to do that, and also a much better athlete than the other person, because if I'm going hard at a workout, I'm not CA I can't count someone else's reps, but if it's someone that you feel like you have more experienced, your capacity's a little higher, you could try to do that, but I'm telling you what, man, if I'm working out with the class, I'm not going to slow down just for that.
Sam Rhee: [00:11:15] Another one was a record, the cheater on camera, and then that's,
Dave Syvertsen: [00:11:20] I've done that really? Yeah, I've done that. For range of motion purposes and not for shaving reps, which is th that kind of cheating bothers me more. But I would just say Hey, here's your squat. You can see what I mean, like here, like you really got to get the hips here and, you got to get the elbows here.
You got to show true extension here, and the more objective you can be with that, the less confrontational it can turn into I don't like confrontation in general. And so I like to. Just not even come across as you're doing it wrong. It's Hey, just look at that squat.
Just give me a couple more inches. It's just the technique. Yeah, exactly. Texas
is a very teachable sort of thing.
That's I think the video can be really important, really useful. That's very positive.
Other things would be just a cheat back. So if they cheat that just cheat or, and write down something even like crazier.
So if it's have recording your scores, so someone's does a 20 minute AMRAP and they say 10 rounds, but they cheated. They go up there and be like, I got 12 rounds and just watch them squirm a little bit taste of their own medicine. Yeah. I mean that, but then you might start building RFP.
You might start getting other people to be like, dude, you're a cheater. Yeah, I
Sam Rhee: [00:12:24] know. Yeah, I think that you're shooting yourself in the foot land. Yeah. And then the other ones would be, I don't think it's helpful. I'm not even going to go to speak to other members or to confront the cheater. I think that's tough.
Dave Syvertsen: [00:12:35] Yeah. I've never done that. I've wanted to, I've never gone up to a person who said I know for a fact you're cheating, but I have in a group setting whether it's a pre-wash talk or after workout, I'd be like, guys, like some of you guys, like I know for a fact are not counting correctly or doing the movements correctly.
Like we don't tell you to get to a certain range of motion for just because we feel like doing it. And again, you have to know the athletes, you have to know the room, but you can start getting a little hostile at that point. You start cursing a little bit, you start having a different tone in your voice.
It does. It does piss me off when someone is in the notoriously cheating and you know it, and you know that they're doing it just so that they have a better number on the board. And I will like, I'll go out of my way in, in the middle of a random, warm-up talk to be like, just say it's pathetic. And I'll say we do know, like you're not going to get away with it for a long time.
And you see the person in your corner start rubbing their eyes squirming a little bit. And sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. And at the end of the day, if someone was in a competitive field, like they're like a competitor or they had really competitive goals, I would definitely go to them.
And say this is not going to work. Okay. And I will like it when you have a judge at a comp or a judge at the open, when we make, we do it right here. Like you have a judge every time you do work out for the open, you're going to get exposed. You're going to feel like an idiot because you've had these scores all year.
And then the second someone's watching you, you come that back down to earth, for what reason? You're just gonna feel like an idiot, you're not going to like, Oh my gosh, I got exposed. So you're just going to feel stupid. And I'll say this, if the cheating. It becomes a habit here.
This is where I think it can turn into a habit outside the gym. Like I think a lot of your personality traits, your true personality traits sign here. And I've always said, it's part of what makes a really strong bond between CrossFitters is you really do see the best and worst of a lot of people.
And I think the personality traits that you show here over time are who you are outside the gym. And I do think you can work on yourself here as a person and, If you turn into a notorious cheater, I think it's going to turn into a neutral notorious tutor outside the gym.
Sam Rhee: [00:14:35] Absolutely. I've never like some people feel like if you play golf with someone, you get to know them. It's no, you do a WOD with them. You really get to know them. And
Dave Syvertsen: [00:14:44] I think especially over the years, you can fake it for a year. But if it's year after year, you're going to a lot of your true colors that you think you can hide. Yeah. Art will not be hidden here. Yeah.
Your good points and bad points. And they're not necessarily awful. Just your own unique personality, who you are comes through. And I think people see that, but I think you're right. Coaches know who's cheating.
If you're an experienced coach, you'll see it.
Sam Rhee: [00:15:07] You know it, there's no like workout after workout, when people should be finishing, their capabilities, where everyone else is. And you're like this isn't adding up
Dave Syvertsen: [00:15:16] Even though now, like there's days where like certain movements of certain, if we have a certain movement in a workout, like a set up pushup, wall walls, even like sometimes, like I can know, like, all right, This person's score was probably this much less.
And that's, again, that comes from experience and really knowing the room on the athletes. But I just know that certain people on certain days, right? Yeah. They just get away with murder. They cheat their way there and it's it sucks. It really does. It's hard to be around sometimes.
And it's, it kinda can take the wind out of the sail because at the end of the day, you're trying so hard to help people here as a coach. And to see someone short it just so that they can get a little ego boost with the number next to the whiteboard bothers me. Yeah, absolutely.
Sam Rhee: [00:15:55] I think like you said it eventually outs. I feel like I would rather take a crappy score. In a daily wide so that when it really counts, I know I will be able to do better then too. If I'm not sure about the number of rounds I'm doing or the number of reps short it now, because I know I wouldn't be able to short it later. Yeah. And you
Dave Syvertsen: [00:16:20] just view your day-to-day stuff is training not competing, I know that's hard. Trust me. I'm competitive. I'm more competitive than any anyone here. Like I really am and yeah. It's hard to always be in the thought that like, I don't need to have this score. I don't need to beat that person. I need to train so that when it does count, I can look back on it and be proud of my effort.
You're never going to be proud of your effort if you know you cheated. I don't care what you put on Instagram. You will never be proud if you cheat ever. You'll never even comprehend what being proud of yourself is if you cheat because it wasn't, it wasn't really,
Sam Rhee: [00:16:51] You can get every episode of Botox and burpees, wherever you listen to podcasts, or go to botoxandburpees.com. thanks for listening 